| [ Total Views: 1048 | Total Replies: 59 | Thread Id: 84899 ] |
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 designergraphics
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 12:20 AM |
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Thanks guys, that's a brilliant result and can't thank you enough! I'm delighted now we've got the actual age of the car - plus I'll be able to
insure it! I had a chat with the owner earlier and it turns out he bought the car as it is and hasn't done any restoration himself. I assumed that
because he owns a restoration company and the car is his own daily drive he'd have done the work himself but he assures me that the car is very
solid, no welding required and that the engine is a beaut so we're looking forward to seeing it on Saturday. Unless we find something wrong it's a
given that my daughter will buy it. I'll let you know how we get on and will post some better photos when we get back on Tuesday. I'm looking
forward to the opportunity of checking all the other little details you told me to look for - in fact I'm looking forward to her buying the car as
much as she is!
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 09:32 AM |
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I agree with the wheels, 5/65 seems about right.
But that chassis number doesn't make sense to me. 113080221 ?
A 1964 model should have a chassis number between 5677119 and 6502399. The new mmy nnnnnn numbering system came in for 1965, so a 1965 model should be
115 nnnnnn. However yours - beginning 113 - indicates a 1973 model. And we know your floorpan is not a '73.
Are you sure the third digit isn't a 5?
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 10:10 AM |
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Arghhh - just I thought it was sorted! The seller definitely told me it was 113 but he could well be wrong. I guess I won't know until I see the car
on Saturday when I'll be able to check for myself. I'm hoping that it is a 5 even if it does make the car a year younger because at least I'll know
what we're getting. Does the 5/65 on the wheels mean they're 1965? I'll remember to check for 'Australia' on the speedo. It says it's a VW 1300
(1285) on the registration document but that's nothing to go by because they weren't so fussy about detail in 1971 when the car was registered here.
It even received a registration that was current for1971 which is something that doesn't happen now. These days an imported car is given an age
related registration no.
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Mr Bubble Head
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 10:17 AM |
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My guess is that its an early body aprox 65 -66 with a 71 pan.
I'm english and one thing you have to understand is a lot old vw cars which were restoed in the past were made up of parts of other MOT (rego)
failiers at least once in some cases twice or now three times each time getting a new paint job. So don't count what "should be" unless you have a
real feeling that the car is factory original.
The pics show its English rego plate ending in a "k" this is telling you is a 71 model car obviouley with an earlier body everything else is bolt on
and could and would of been changed to suite looks or wallet at the time.
Cheers Nick
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Joel
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 11:10 AM |
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Ask him where he's pulled that number from cos technically that # wont exist
As Phil said the new 9 digit numbering came in with the start of the 65 model run (aug 64) and started at 115 except aus made bugs wer 19x
its possible its a typo and could be 115 to 117 but that means its not an aussie made bug
it wont be a 73 pan either the chassis numbers went to 10 digit with the new decade in 70
But i can assure you one thing, its definately sitting on a pre 67 floorpan
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 03:03 PM |
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I think we are making progress, even if there is still a smidgen of uncertainty!
Yes the wheel stamp 5/65 means May 1965. If they were the original wheels, that's (roughly) when the car was made. From the photos, it looks like a
Aussie 1965 body too so I am convinced that is what it was originally. Australian 1965 models still had 1200 40-hp engines originally - the 1300
didn't come in until 1966. The only significant difference between Aussie '64s and '65s was the front and back seats. The '65's front seat backs
were curved at the top, rather than flat-topped like the '64's. The '65 back seat was slightly differently shaped and was designed to make a
completely flat area when folded forward. Earlier ones didn't fold completely flat. Of course, this Beetle doesn't seem to have the original
seats...
Hi Nick, yes rebuilding VWs with different parts from different years is part of the game, and establishing what is what is all part of the fun!
Especially when VWs from different factories around the world were different in many ways. I agree that the body is a '65, but as Joel says, the
floorpan is NOT a '71. It's a pre-'67, as you can tell by the shape of the handbrake, gearstick and pedals. It's only the quoted chassis number
starting 113 that has thrown us - for all we know it might have that number on the rego papers, but the number stamped on the tunnel might be totally
different.
I'm sure it has UK 'K' rego, as that's when it was imported to the UK, as was mentioned earlier. It would have had Australian rego before that -
if in NSW, probably starting with D or E.
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empi
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 03:04 PM |
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I was going on what the samba.com had. 113 would indicate a 73 pan? be interested to see if its a balljoint car
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 06:45 PM |
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Well I'm leaving in an hour's time in a state of total confusion. Staying overnight and viewing the car tomorrow morning at 11.00. I'm really
hoping he made an error with the chassis no, I'm guessing he took it from the reg documents rather than removing the back seat - but I'll be
removing the seat! I'd see samba.com as well empi and was thrown by the '73 date. I'm feeling that it can't be a '73 because it would be recorded
as a '73 not a '71. The owner said it's definitely earlier than '71 so I'm inclined to go along with you guys who believe it's an early
floorpan. Although it's registered with a 'K' plate, that's because it was imported in '71 and has nothing to do with the car's actual age. An
uncle of mine brought a BMW back with him when he moved back from Germany in '74. Although the car was a '69 model it was given an 'N' reg no
('74) which was the current plate for the year it was imported. Things are different now and imported cars receive an age related plate. Thanks again
for all your input, it's been an invaluable help to me - even if I still don't know what year it is!! 
I'll give you an update when I get back.
Cheers, Clive
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 07:01 PM |
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A quick update - just phoned the insurance company for an amended quote for a 1600cc because they originally quoted for a 1300cc and it came back at
£126 fully comp - which is £6 cheaper than a 1300cc! I'm not complaining!
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empi
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 08:53 PM |
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Take a photo of the front bean and the shock towers.
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 Bizarre
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| posted on July 23rd, 2010 at 09:41 PM |
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| Quote: | Originally
posted by empi
Take a photo of the front bean
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Empi
There is no way i am taking a pic of your front bean
Scilicet putas te currum reficere posse - stipes es!!!
Futue te ipsum!!!
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empi
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| posted on July 24th, 2010 at 01:25 PM |
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  HAHAHAHAHAHA LATE NIGHT TYPO
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 28th, 2010 at 08:16 AM |
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Well my daughter bought the car and, 200 miles and three breakdowns later, we're home!
My son's friend is a keen VW fan and has restored a few over the past years and he had a good look over the car this afternoon and confirmed that the
body is indeed pre '67 Australian built (although the engine lid is earlier, as was pointed out earlier in the thread), which is backs up what you
guys have said and Phil74Camper confirmed from the date on the wheels. It has an early front beam and all the running gear looks original to that
period. The floor is original and solid, as are the heater channels. The oddity is that the stamp underneath the rear seat is a 10 figure number,
1113080221 making it '71. He doesn't see how this fits with the rest of the car and the pedals, heater control etc don't match those of a '71,
something you guys also said - but maybe Mr Bubble Head is right! Adapters were used to fit the Fuschs alloys. The good news is that the car is very
solid and original and doesn't need any work so my daughter will run it for two years, saving like mad in the meantime so that she'll be able to
take it off the road and have it totally stripped and restored. There are a few minor mechanical things that will need doing straight away so she's
making arrangements to have these done: new exhaust, petrol gauge doesn't work, heater doesn't work, small oil leak needs sorting and the rubber
gasket that runs along the engine bay is missing. Other than that everything looks good.
Fifteen minutes after picking up the car we stopped for petrol and it wouldn't start again. The AA breakdown guy said there was a loose connection on
the starter motor and a possible fault with the immobiliser. He tightened the connection and sent us on our way. Things went well until it was time to
get off the ferry and the car wouldn't start again. After a bump start courtesy of the crew we were on our way again. Another petrol stop later and
the car refused to start again. A second AA guy said the problem was with the immobiliser and bypassed the connection to the starter motor. The engine
fired up straight away and the problem hasn't reoccurred since. It's amazing the amount of attention the car's received - mainly because it's
'Herbie'. My daughter was asked to give some children a ride on the camp site we stayed at (she was even offered money to do so but was glad to do
it F.O.C.) and no end of people have waved and drivers tooted their horns.
Thanks again for all you help and input. It made the research much more interesting and fun and gave me loads of things to look out for.
Here's a few photos of the memorable journey home - I guess Herbie just didn't want to leave the Island:
Collecting Herbie.
First Breakdown
Ferry home - didn't catch the crew pushing unfortunately!
Second Breakdown
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1303Steve
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| posted on July 28th, 2010 at 08:20 AM |
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Hi
It looks like its going to be in safe hands, congratulations.
Does it have a king & link pin front end?
Steve
The angle grinder is my friend.
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 28th, 2010 at 09:12 AM |
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I'll check on that tomorrow Steve. It will be in good hands - it's been pampered already. It's now sharing our only garage space with my son's 993
so my car's got to jostle for space on the drive alongside my son's Golf and my daughter's 'new shape' Beetle. I'm not looking forward to having
to scrape frost off the windscreen in winter!
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on July 28th, 2010 at 08:39 PM |
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Glad you got the car, and glad to help!
Can you also take a photo of:
* The number stamped onto the tunnel? The pan is NOT a '71, we know that from the handbrake, gear stick, heater control and pedals, so the number is
a furphy. I'm wondering if the chassis number is actually 3080221 - making it early-mid 1960 - and someone has manually added a 111 to the beginning?
I suspect that if the chassis needed replacing many years ago, the manufacturing plate on the body at the front might have been conveniently 'lost'
(we know yours is missing).
* The back of the speedo - it ought to have the date stamped on it somewhere
* Also look under the front blinker chrome covers - remove the single Phillips screw and lift them off. They usually have a date stamp underneath. You
may well still have the original guards.
One thing to remember - when you buy replacement parts when you restore it, DON'T order 1965 parts. Australian 1965 VWs are not like Euro/UK/US
1965s. Buy 1963/64 parts and you'll be fine.
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Joel
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| posted on July 28th, 2010 at 09:34 PM |
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If it is someone has done some major major surgery to make it into an early pan then
but i find it hard to beleive unless its had a pan swap since being in the UK that it would have been put on what would have been an almost brand new
bugs floor pan in aus
but anyway if its all legal now who cares
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designergraphics
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| posted on July 30th, 2010 at 02:17 AM |
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Thanks for the tip on ordering 1963/64 parts - I'd have ordered '65. I can confirm that it does have a king & link pin front end but can't take
photographs or check anything else because the car's in a garage having an exhaust fitted - £250.00, ouch!! It was due back today but the chrome
tailpipes didn't arrive so we'll pick it up tomorrow. The good news is that three people (including the VW aircooled specialist that's doing the
exhaust) have said it's in excellent structural condition so we won't have to worry about any body work for the next couple of years and we can just
concentrate on cosmetic work and making sure the mechanics / brakes are tip top. It's going in for a full check-up in two weeks time so I'm hoping
there'll be no nasty surprises. I'll give the other info and post a photo of the chassis number as soon as I can. As Joel said, it's legal, which
is the important thing - but I'd still like to get to the bottom of it!
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Mr Bubble Head
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| posted on July 30th, 2010 at 11:55 PM |
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.
Glad it all worked out for you well done on scoring a solid early beetle. One tip I recomend is what I always replace on any old vw is get the fuel
pump diaphram replaced it'll cost you unde £20 for the parts and will save you an AA call out when the fuel pump packs up. The diaphram could be as
old as the car itself
Enjoy !!!!
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 10:00 AM |
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Thanks Mr Bubble Head, I'll make sure it's changed when it gets a mechanical check and service. I've posted a photo of the chassis number (sorry
it's so large) along with a photo of the speedo (showing the Australia stamp). I've also posted some photos of the sunvisor holes as the visors are
missing and will need to be replaced. Would these be pre 64 (Euro date) visors? I've also checked the date on the back of the speedo and it's 11 -
66 (Nov '66?). It's also got the numbers 111957023E and W.08.
The car's sounding much better with the new exhaust fitted and looks better after a good polish today. Managed to get some brand new replacement door
cards at a bargain price (good old eBay) and might be able to get some new headlamps. There's a VW show locally next month so we'll be taking the
car, along with a shopping list. Hopefully my daughter will meet some local owners as she's hoping to join a club. There's also a convoy drive that
she's going on so that should be good. The best news is that the car hasn't faltered since the immobiliser wiring was altered.
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empi
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 11:09 AM |
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june 71 according to samba.com http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/bugchassisdating.php
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 08:15 PM |
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That checks out with when the UK registraion empi - 23rd August 1971 which is probably the registration date of the donor car. As much as I'd have
loved the chassis to be original I think I'll have to accept it's a '71. I'm going to write to the DVLA to request a list of all previous keepers
in the UK and I'll write to each one, enclosing a photo of the car as it is now, asking if they have any history etc. I'm hoping that someone will
reply saying they added the current body and how and when it was imported to the UK. If I could somehow find the Australian registration number from
them I might be able to trace an owner in Australia which would be brilliant. In the meantime my daughter will just enjoy driving the car - and I'll
have the pleasure of polishing it!
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Joel
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 08:58 PM |
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I hate to say it but that VIN number is restamped.
Factory stamped 68 onwards VIN numbers dont look any thing like that, those ones have been stamped on by hand with number punches
Pretty well everything about your bug points to it being an aussie 66 or 67 deluxe
noone would cut off a balljoint framehead to fit a linkpin one, or go to all effort of welding in an early heater control, fitting ealry pedals,
handbrake, gear lever etc so there's a good chance it is on the original pan just why someone has frigged with the vin is strange
If all the paperwork says its legal I'd let sleeping dogs lie
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 09:15 PM |
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Oh Noooooo - here we go again!!!
Actually I thought the stamp looked a little amateurish but thought that maybe that's how it was done in the 70's. It could be that the car was
stolen at some point in it's past (I'm NOT going to look into that!) or maybe someone fancied a newer reg no and knew of a '71 write off. Even if I
manage to contact the previous owners it's unlikely anyone will admit to that. It's a shame we can't give the car it's true identity but I guess
it will always retain an air of mystery - which is no bad thing.
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Joel
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 09:35 PM |
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Over 21 million of the things out there, it's natural that a few have checkered pasts.
Someone on superbeetlesonly had a super that actually predated supers by nearly a year
I wouldn't lose sleep over it
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 1st, 2010 at 09:43 PM |
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I won't lose sleep Joel, life's too short. My daughter loves the car and that's all that matters. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that there's
something odd about the car - after all, it is Herbie!
Thanks again everyone, your input has been both enlightening and enjoyable. 
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donn
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| posted on August 2nd, 2010 at 07:36 AM |
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Hey designergraphics, are you sure your a Pommie, I don't detect an accent, car sure looks good who realy cares if it's not 100% as it should be.
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 2nd, 2010 at 08:17 AM |
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Ha Ha! Yep, 100% donn, from OSW - I've got a broad Welsh accent 'in the flesh'. Car is looking good, yes, but not outstanding by any stretch of the
imagination. Just as well really as it's going to be used, not just looked at.
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Phil74Camper
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| posted on August 2nd, 2010 at 11:34 AM |
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Forget Samba. The pan is NOT a '71. Joel is right - look at the pedals and the gearstick. You can even see the stub where the heater knob once was.
It's a pre '68 6-volt link pin pan, and I'm 99.99% sure it's the original pan that the car was built with in Melbourne.
Joel is right, the chassis number has been restamped. You can vaguely see the outline of other numbers underneath the '111'. I wouldn't worry about
it. It's only interesting to wonder about the history...probably restamped when it arrived in the UK (and the VW Australia manufacturing plate lost
at the same time...)
So your spare wheel says 1965 and your speedo says 1966. As wheels were much more easily swapped over the last 45 years, I would say that the
speedo's date is more likely to be accurate. Yes, I suspect your body is an Aussie '66. Someone has fitted an earlier (pre'65) rear vision mirror,
which has the visors directly attached to it. Aussie '66-67s had slightly different sun visors, attached on an arm at the sides and located with
plastic clips either side of the mirror. Those visors could be pulled out of the clips and swung around. Those holes you see are where the centre
plastic clips were originally mounted; you may also have unused mounting holes at the front corners.
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designergraphics
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| posted on August 4th, 2010 at 08:55 AM |
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Thanks Phil, I'm going to use a strong light to see if I can work out the original number when I get a chance. I've sent the form off for a list of
previous owners but was told that we have to wait until the car's been registered in my daughter's name before they'll release the information so
that will take a couple of weeks. I'll let the '71 chassis no stand seeing as it's legal because if I stir things up we might end up having to get
a safety check done on the car and it will probably be issued with a 'Q' plate, which is what gets assigned to kit cars - and we wouldn't want
that! I'm at a loss to understand why someone would want to change the chassis no though as it most probably would have been done after coming to the
UK and, if so, it would defeat the purpose of importing an older car.
Thanks for the info about the sun visors too. You're right about extra holes on the sides, so should I order '65 visors? I'm attaching a photo of
the holes and the visors I thought should fit, although I think the ones shown are for a LHD. Finally, the window regulators don't work and I'm
having trouble finding replacements. Would a later type fit or is a problem because of the bigger windows? I've added a photo at the end.
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